Rebel again

This post is in response to a comment made by Rebel.

Blue text = me quoting you quoting me.

Red text = me quoting you.

Black Italic text = my reply in this post.

This post contains two inserts, an excerpt from your Blue Lodge Master Mason Ritual and an excerpt from the Constitution of one of your Grand Lodges, freely available on the internet.

You said;

“It really does not matter whether masonry is a religion or not, as I mention again below.”

Well that pretty much debunks your entire theory that Freemasonry is a sin.

Really? Not so fast, my friend. You insinuate that freemasonry can only be contrary to biblical Christianity if it is a religion – if it is not a religion, it is not a sin. That does not fly I’m afraid. Is committing adultery a religion? No. Is it sin? Yes. Why? Because it transgresses God’s law, (seventh commandment). So it follows – is Freemasonry a religion? No. Is it sin? Yes. Why? Because it transgresses God’s law (first commandment, amongst others).

Get it now?

Well your argument is based on an assumption that Freemasonry is some kind of religion that lies to its members.

Definitely not, as I have proved above. Whether Freemasonry is viewed as a religion or not is inconsequential to my argument. I answer on the lie a bit further down.

There’s no worship involved…never has been… In other words, its secular.

Sorry to burst your bubble for you – worship is indeed involved.
(Refer to the insert “Extract from a Grand Lodge Constitution.) Click on the image to enlarge

What do you call joining together in prayer? A whole bunch of on-line dictionaries I referenced call it WORSHIP (check it out!)

What do you call “…persons of different faith [may] joining together in prayer.” Considering the fact that they are not all praying to the same God, I call it a transgression of God’s first commandment, an abomination before God!

Getting it now?

…NFL football team… …because it is not a religion.

I am not against diversity and I am not saying we should not be tolerant to others of different religious orientation. In fact I have many colleagues at work from all walks of life including all other religions and we all get along just fine. Although we are of different faith we respect each other and I love all gods children regardless of what they believe. If we do talk religion it is most often open, exploratory, non-confrontational and non-judgmental. Of course, as a Christian we are obliged to witness and propagate the gospel and that I do.

Yes I have been lied to… …It’s not a lie…

OK, let me explain the lie again from another perspective. And I am not saying this is some high-order conspiracy. Not at all. I am not alluding to anything except staying with the published facts to prove my point. In your Master Mason ritual, just prior to the Candidate undertaking his obligation, the following is said to him by the Worshipful Master;

WM: Brother ______, before you can proceed further in Freemasonry, it will be necessary for you to take an Obligation appertaining to this degree. It becomes my duty as well as pleasure to inform you that there is nothing contained in the Obligation that conflicts with the duties you owe to God, your country, your neighbor, your family, or yourself. With this assurance on my part, are you willing to take the Obligation.

(my highlighting) (extract from your Master Mason ritual.)

The fact of the matter is that if you are a Christian the obligation does actually contain something contrary to what you owe God. As a Christian you owe Him (amongst other things, of course) to be obedient to his command in Mark 16:15.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. ( Mark 16:15 NIV )

Now, as you well know, any discussion on religion is not allowed – as per your own constitution (see attached insert). In your obligation you have sworn under oath to support the same (see insert again). What does that mean. It means you will uphold it, be obedient to it, do as it commands, right? Right.

What does it command? …religion may not be discussed at Masonic meetings. (see insert)

So in Lodge we may not be faithful to our God, we may not witness. So we have been lied to, right? Right! So we come to the choice Bill mentioned; “the Lamb, or the lambskin.” We have to make a choice. You CAN NOT be loyal to both. If you think you can you are simply fooling yourself. More! You are playing with FIRE! You know what I am talking about, right? FOR EVER.

Hopefully you are getting it NOW.

The parallel argument is the one you know already; yes indeed it is a lie because the first commandment commands us not to bring any other Gods before Him. And that is exactly what is done in Lodge when a prayer is offered to God and brethren from other faiths are present, united with us in that same prayer.

So then, for the same reason the very assurance that the obligation contains nothing untoward our dues to God must be taken as a lie.

The only way out would have been to make it clear to all that the God we pray to is actually the God we as Christians know and worship and if no exclusions were practiced regarding the mention of Jesus. But that is not the way it is, is it?

“your obligation included a pledge of allegiance and obedience to, amongst other things, the Constitution of your Grand Lodge, right?”

Wrong. Sorry, I’m not sure where that came from…but I made no pledge to the Grand Lodge. But I did agree to follow the rules and regulations, and as I look through those rules and regulations, which are written and can be read by anyone – no “Secret” –

Really? See the insert with an extract from your Master Mason ritual. Click on the image to enlarge

I find NOTHING that says that I must acknowledge any other god besides my own.

It is implied that you will do it. Being a duly obligated Master Mason you have sworn under oath to support the Constitution.

The Constitution says; Freemasonry is open to men of any faith,

A faith implies a deity or a god. This can be ANY god. As none are rejected, all are accepted. As all are accepted they are thus acknowledged.

“I am sorry dear friend, I disagree. Freemasonry does indeed conflict with your faith if you are a Christian as I have already explained. It was one of the toughest realizations that dawned on me after I made a decision for Jesus.”

How does it conflict with my Faith? No you never truly explained but only revealed a personal problem that you have with it, more of a biased view than one that can be seen as a concrete fact of why it conflicts with my Faith as a Christian…

I trust beyond hope that the above sufficiently explained my viewpoint. And that is – a Christian can indeed not be a Freemason. Why do I “push” it as you say? Because my dear Friend. I realize that you and millions more are caught up in the believe that you will stand just as righteous before God on judgment day as you feel righteous right now, because you can not for the life of you see any flaw. You can not and will not see the serious contradictions your beloved fraternity has with biblical Christianity and this poses a serious threat to where you are going to spend eternity. How glad will I be if meet in heaven one day? EXCEEDINGLY GLAD! And so would you.

Freemasonry is not for everybody. The journey to salvation is a personal one, so you must do what you feel that is right. I feel Freemasonry is right and helps me along the way. It’s pretty much a difference in how we believe, although both Christians, our views differ somewhat which is not uncommon among Christians.

My dear friend, if we all do what we feel is right, chances are we will all end up in the WARM place. We have to do what is right with God and only the word of God can tell us that. Just read it and then do it.!

I wish to state again emphatically that I have a high regard for every single mason I have ever had the privilege to meet. They are all great people. One can not hope to meet a better bunch of guys. Kind, considerate and with good intent, is how one can describe them. So please do not construe that I am anti-mason or that I am judging anyone. I am however of the sincere conviction that masonry bounds one (unwittingly, unless you read the “fine-print”) to serious contradictions of God’s will and thus aggrieves Him greatly. Unfortunately, as is so evident from most masons, they are completely oblivious to this dire threat and the eternal consequences it carries for themselves. As an ex-mason and person who holds the persons if not the principles in extreme high regard and as a Christian who wants to extend a caring, loving warning to these dear, dear people, I feel compelled to just that.

God Bless.

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8 Responses to “Rebel again”

  1. Rebel Says:

    It’s still diversity in an organization that is separate from any religion, not to take the place of a man’s religion or belief. Everything you posted, everything you underlined, pretty much just proved the point.

    Your work place is diverse, you just stated that. If a Muslim prayed right next to you and you prayed right next to him, would that be an abomination?

    I also assume your work place has rules in place to not allow religion to be discussed as that might cause a hostile work environment. I assume you have had Human Resource training and know what “Hostile Work Environment” means…It’s not “violence” but basically offending and or causing disputes among colleagues.

    Anyway, your work place is pretty much secular, not a place of worship… Freemasonry is the same way…

    Lets go back to prayer. Everyone prays to their own God, in our case God the Father of Christ or Christ, Jesus. I believe it is safe to refer to God as the “Architect” or our universe, the “Grand Architect” or creator. How’s that conflict with Christianity? I have no problem with that…
    But lets look at what it means to pray:

    –verb (used with object)
    1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
    2. to offer (a prayer).
    3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
    4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
    5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
    6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
    7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
    –verb (used without object)
    8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

    I believe that covers what it means to pray. Again, people in a place outside of any church or place of worship praying to their own deity… Don’t make it out to be anything more than what it is or try to make into something that it’s not…

    A Baseball team has a moment of silence to pray. The team consist of a variety of players from different cultures and different beliefs. Each of them pray to their own deity. A baseball field is not a place of worship nor is any player to offend other players by discussing religion or politics during practice. Is that an abomination? It’s diversity…

    There’s nothing stating that one could not talk about Religion or Politics after a Lodge Meeting just like a colleague can talk about Religion or Politics after work hours, etc… But if you read any documents that may have been signed, “Terms and Agreements” or “Office Conduct” that you must agree, “Obligation”, you will find it similar to that which you have posted…The meaning is the same, “I will not offend another person that may believe differently than me.” That’s the basic meaning and goal spelled out.

    “I realize that you and millions more are caught up in the believe that you will stand just as righteous before God on judgment day as you feel righteous right now, because you can not for the life of you see any flaw.”

    That’s where you and I really differ… I will not stand before God feeling righteous or perfect, by no means. I will not stand at all but drop and kneel as I know that I’m a hypocrite and a sinner. I’ll never tell another person they will burn in hell because they believe differently as I feel that person has the same chance as I, even better a chance to enter into God’s kingdom. After all, I realize that every person and everything was created by God and belongs to God. God loves the Atheist as he loves me even though I’m not fond of the Atheists views or how they condemn me for believing in God. But I know God loves the Atheist just the same… So who am I to say what God plans on doing with a person whom he loves?

    “My dear friend, if we all do what we feel is right, chances are we will all end up in the WARM place.”

    Well, do what you feel is wrong. But I’ll listen to my conscious and do what I feel is right in my heart… There’s two sides, right or wrong. I feel if the extremist would do what they fell is right, there would be no violence. No rational thinking sane man would feel right about hurting others…

    So far there’s nothing that conflicts with Christianity, or at least anything within the New or Old Testament of the Holy Bible. The underlined text above only shows an agreement to be diverse and that the organization is open to all men of faith, the same with every organization outside any place of a specific worship. Again, it is not meant to take place of any religion or conflict with one’s own religion…

    I know of one organization that is outside of a place of worship and only allows Christians and they exclude any person that is not white and that is not Christian…They are called the KKK… They are similar to another organization which uphold Nazi fascism and they call themselves “Skin Heads”.

    But for some reason people like to go after the Freemasons which are diverse, peaceful, and caring people…

    But thanks for underlining that Freemasonry believe in “Freedom of Religion.” That’s important as all men have a right to be free and not forced to believe as another. We do not believe in fascism and no one likes to be repressed or ruled by tyrants…

  2. corrie Says:

    exellent anothermouse,your comment is truly outstanding, if anybody now dont understand that a christian cannot be a mason after this, then yes they are blinfolded and see what they want to see, i wll still pray for them and for the HOLY SPIRIT to come unto them< GOD bless in JESUS”S HOLY name

  3. anothermouse Says:

    Rebel,
    Wow, how do you manage to reply so soon. I have just posted it.
    You still don’t get it do you?
    I nor any one else can force a person into anything.
    I’ve given you all I have.
    I know its not nice to say to someone he might go to the WARM place.
    But is it nicer to say nothing and then hear you cry from across the abyss one day and you say’ “you knew, why did you do nothing to warn others?”
    Do you see MY predicament.
    Feel free to reject what I say if you FEEL that is the thing to do.
    I don’t expect you or anyone else to snap into a different gear and say, “hey gee, thanx anothermouse, thanx a lot.”
    You do with it what you have to as you see fit.

    You are in my prayers, my friend,
    God Bless.

  4. Rebel Says:

    Actually no, your argument is completely assuming that Freemasonry does conflict to Christianity and your servant corrie, that likes to comment in a different language about Aaron, agrees with you. However, I ask, given the below facts, where in the Christian Bible does it state what it is a sin to be a Mason? No assumptions, only facts. Keep in mind that Freemasonry does not call for a man to put a god above our God as it is not a religion but a diverse organization. So, enlighten us based on the facts about freemasonry:

    Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion:
    (a) It has no dogma or theology, no wish or means to enforce religious orthodoxy.
    (b) It offers no sacraments.
    (c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge, or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition, not with the means of salvation.

    Freemasonry is far from indifferent toward religion. Without interfering in religious practice, it expects each member to follow his own faith and to place his Duty to God above all other duties. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

    The obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on the Volume of the Sacred Law. They are undertakings to follow the principles of Freemasonry and to keep confidential a Freemason’s means of recognition. The much discussed “penalties,” judicial remnants from an earlier era, are symbolic, not literal. They refer only to the pain any honest man should feel at the thought of violating his word.

    Masons believe that there is one God and that people employ many different ways to seek, and to express what they know of, God. Masonry primarily uses the appellation, “Grand Architect of the Universe,” and other nonsectarian titles, to address Deity, In this way, persons of different faiths may join together in prayer, concentrating on God, rather than differences among themselves. Masonry believes in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and God is personal, private, and scared.

    Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It requires of its members belief in God as part of the obligation of every responsible adult, but advocates no sectarian faith or practice. Masonic ceremonies include prayers, both traditional and extempore, to reaffirm each individual’s dependence on God and to seek divine guidance. Freemasonry is open to men of any faith, but religion may not be discussed at Masonic meetings.

    Masonry, as its name implies, centers symbolically around the ancient builders of temples and cathedrals. It is natural for groups to fashion a designation for God that relates to their interests. In the military, I attended an outdoor church service conducted by a visiting chaplain, an ordained minister. He referred to God as “Our Supreme Commander-in-Chief in heaven.” The Masons often do refer to God as The Great Architect of the Universe, but what’s wrong with that? The architect is one who plans and brings a structure into being. Historians refer to the Founding Fathers as the “architects of the Constitution.” As a designation for God, The Great Architect of the Universe makes sense, and it means precisely the same thing as the universally popular “The Creator.” The slight difference is that the Masonic designation implies that God created the world according to a plan, although there is no Masonic description of what that plan may be.

    It promotes no heaven, no hell, and no means of salvation. There’s no “witnessing” or arguing over religious beliefs in the lodge. There is no religious dogma. It can’t be a religion.

    When one examines the commonalities and differences in religions, there is a short list of traits all share but which are unique to none thereby achieving a WORKING model of what religion is. It is important to remember that this involves RELIGION not SPIRITUALITY, which for the most part, is a trait of being human.
    A group of people who by means of culture, propinquity and common beliefs come together in a recognized group.
    A profession of belief in a higher existence and/or being.
    Group action which encases their belief system in symbolism and ritual.
    Through the self-definitions of the above, the group proceeds in a “we-they” quasi political (encased in mysticism and/or spirituality) manner to promote and maintain their organization.

    It can reasonably be argued that all of these are true of Masonry. Similarly, however, they are also true of organizations like Scouting, Campfire, Alcoholics Anonymous and The U. S. Navy League – to name but a few.

    Show us some scripture that says any of those facts would lead a person to hell.

  5. Rebel Says:

    I see my last comment was removed… Why?
    Let me ask again…

    Based on the facts, not biased assumptions or theories, below provide scripture that says being a Mason is a sin:

    Anti-Masons often try to “prove” that Freemasonry is a religion – and then, on that basis, condemn it as being a ‘false religion’. Masons know full well that Freemasonry is no more a religion than is golf, Scouting, or the U. S. Navy League. The arguments raised, though, may leave those unfamiliar with Masonry questioning.

    Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It requires of its members belief in God as part of the obligation of every responsible adult, but advocates no sectarian faith or practice. Masonic ceremonies include prayers, both traditional and extempore, to reaffirm each individual’s dependence on God and to seek divine guidance. Freemasonry is open to men of any faith, but religion may not be discussed at Masonic meetings.

    Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion:
    (a) It has no dogma or theology, no wish or means to enforce religious orthodoxy.
    (b) It offers no sacraments.
    (c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge, or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition, not with the means of salvation.

    Freemasonry specifies no particular religious belief but encourages its members to follow the beliefs of their own religion, prayers in lodge may refer to the Grand Architect of the Universe. Members are free to mentally insert the name they wish in its stead. Certain religious extremists argue that any prayer not offered in the name of Jesus is somehow invalid, ignoring the fact that then Jesus’ own prayers would have been so. We do not discuss individual’s religious beliefs on this site but merely point out that if a Mason believes that every prayer should be addressed to Jesus, Mary, Allah, or in some other way as represented by his religion, he is free to do so. The Grand Architect of the Universe is God and to claim that Masons somehow worship someone or something else is obfuscation at best and a heinous lie at worst.

    When one examines the commonalities and differences in religions, there is a short list of traits all share but which are unique to none thereby achieving a WORKING model of what religion is. It is important to remember that this involves RELIGION not SPIRITUALITY, which for the most part, is a trait of being human.
    – A group of people who by means of culture, propinquity and common beliefs come together in a recognized group.
    – A profession of belief in a higher existence and/or being.
    – Group action which encases their belief system in symbolism and ritual.
    – Through the self-definitions of the above, the group proceeds in a “we-they” quasi political (encased in mysticism and/or spirituality) manner to promote and maintain their organization.

    It can reasonably be argued that all of these are true of Masonry. Similarly, however, they are also true of organizations like Scouting, Campfire, Alcoholics Anonymous and The U. S. Navy League – to name but a few.

    So on the basis of this non-partisan, sociological model, Freemasonry more than fits and for these reasons, some could find it hard to see why Masonry is, in fact, NOT a religion.

    However, when we look at what religion does, there is an entirely different picture.

    Religions do the following (though details vary from one to the next):
    – Practice sacerdotal functions – Masonry does NOT!
    – Teach Theology – Masonry does NOT!
    – Ordain Clergy – Masonry does NOT!
    – Define sin and salvation – Masonry does NOT!
    – Perform sacraments – Masonry does NOT!
    – Publish or specify a Holy Book – Masonry does NOT!
    – Describe or define the Deity – Masonry does NOT!

  6. Rebel Says:

    Before you answer the question, possibly taking scripture out of context, keep in mind… King James was a Freemason…

    Study the Hiram Key…

  7. anothermouse Says:

    Rebel,
    Freemasonry is not a religion, OK. So, change the tune, please.
    Yep, and you don’t get it. Well, you can’t blame me for not trying.
    Sorry about your comment being late, it was not me, I promise.
    And we are about seven or eight ours out of sinc time-wise, hence the lag in communication.

    All the best Buddy,
    and God Bless.

    PS: Please don’t insult Corrie by calling him names. He cares about you like you can’t imagine.

    King James? OK. I’ll take your word for it. And I have read the Hiram Key. Makes no difference to my argument.

  8. corrie Says:

    sorry rebel you got it all wrong, different from you i am no mans servant, im GOD’s servant only, unlike you who is a servant of freemasonry, sorry to spoil your fun ,i only serve GOD, THE SON AND the HOLY SPIRIT,and not an idol like hiram abiff

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